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There are reasons why people of color aren't flocking to the fat
acceptance movement, and they're probably not the reasons you're
thinking of.
I swear, if I read or hear one more comment about
POC not participating in the fat acceptance movement due to "access," I
am going to scream. If we're talking about internet communities, one
only needs to do a quick Google search to find that there are vibrant
pockets of the blogosphere where people of color are contributing their
thoughts and stories and building online communities that work for them
in droves. If we're talking about in-person fat activism, people of
color from all sorts of backgrounds have always found time and space to contribute to the anti-oppression movements that matter most to them. People of color know resistance.
So I don't wanna hear it. We're here all right; we're just not with you.
I
see the fat acceptance movement making many of the same mistakes that
second wave feminism did, and it's both sad and maddening. "We built this movement;
why don't they come?" That is the prevailing attitude I read over and
over again. But rarely, if ever, do I see white fat acceptance bloggers
talking critically about why the movement may not be relevant or
structured in a way that attracts fat people of color and their allies.
Let's break it down for a minute.
Fat
acceptance bloggers are guilty of the same sins of white feminism in
that there is often a wholesale grouping of all fat people under the
same oppression umbrella, with little or cursory examination of how things
like race, class, sexuality, gender and gender presentation, ability,
and age play into the fat equation. At minimum, folks in the fat
acceptance movement need to take serious stock of their own position in
the world, and how their privilege may be blockading their
understanding of how other peoples' experiences, identities, and
embodiments change the way they experience their fat and how their fat
is experienced by the world at large.
I also need to say that if
I hear the "fat is the last acceptable oppression" meme one more time,
I am going to scream (louder). Fat hatred is often blatant, shameless,
vitriolic, and completely public. But guess what? So is racism! (And
classism, heterosexism, ableism, and sexism.) Racism is
institutionalized into our laws, our classrooms, our work places, and
our daily interactions. Just because some white folks think it's
unacceptable to say the n-word, doesn't mean that racism is gone or that it's not "acceptable." When
people in the fat acceptance movement say that fat is the last
acceptable oppression, it alienates and invalidates the struggles of people of color, who know first-hand
that racism not only exists, but that it is also very much "acceptable"
in polite society.
Another offensive myth that I hear parroted
around fairly often is that people of color are more accepting of fat
bodies, and that men of color love a "thick" woman. Let's just say that
that is NOT my experience. In many different Asian communities, that is
the opposite of the truth. By Taiwanese (where my mom is from) beauty
standards, my 5'4, size 20, size 10 shoe body is enormous in almost
every sense of the word. The last time my mom went to Taipei and tried
to buy me a pair of shoes, the vendor asked her if they were for a man.
The last time I saw my uncle 8 years ago (when I was a size 16), his
friends laughed at me and he said that he wanted to put me on a diet
program. Of course, Asians and Asian culture is not a monolith, and
this standard is not true for everyone, everywhere. In fact, among
other communities of color, it is not necessarily true that bigger
women are more accepted. Our communities are also capable of
internalizing fat-hating messages, so to say that people of color are
more accepting of fatness is not only false, but it also marginalizes
us further and contributes to perpetuating the invisibility of our
struggles with our bodies.
A couple of years ago on
fatshionista , I made an attempt to talk about the concept of
appropriation as it related to fat fashion. As people who are forced to
be creative with our clothing choices, I noticed that some women were
talking about wearing a salwar kameez as summerwear and asking about
where they could find plus sized qipao/cheongsam. But when I suggested
that we look at how these things might be appropriation and how we
could be creative in our fashion choices without resorting to cultural
theft, the overwhelming response of the 400+ comments that followed was
furious. While some members found merit in my questions,
many of the responses were along the lines of "It's just clothes! No
big deal! Stop being so PC!" So, I am saying now that if you want us in
your community, it IS a big fucking deal, and it needs to be addressed.
Let's also talk for a minute about beauty standards. There is a significant portion of the fat acceptance movement that is fighting for the right to be seen as "pretty, too." They want to fight for the standard definition of beauty to include them too, as if they have been denied some god-given right to be seen as beautiful. But when this demand is articulated, there is no consideration or thought about the fact that women of color have always been excluded from this category, and are masculinized, exoticized, or otherwise been seen as exceptions to the pretty rule (i.e. "She's pretty for a [insert non-white race here] girl!"). So, arguing for the "right" of plus sized white women to be let into the pretty club does not address us or our struggles with the problematics of beauty standards.
One
final subject I want to speak on is how disappointing it is that I've
rarely seen people in the fat acceptance movement address access as it
relates to food. It's simple: the poorer your neighborhood, the less
access you have to nutritionally-rich, affordable food. Often, in
neighborhoods populated by low-income and/or people of color, there are
few, if any, grocery stores and a high concentration of fast food
restaurants. And even when there are grocery stores, they often carry
second- and third-hand produce, meats, and dairy products that are
cast-offs from the grocery stores in wealthier neighborhoods. A diet
high in foods with low or no nutritional value affects the health and
well-bring of the people consuming them, and if this kind of diet
results in a fatter body, we need to figure out a way to talk about it
in a manner that is both fat positive, and also working to fight for
better, fresher, cheaper foods for everyone. I also want to be clear
here that I am not trying to perpetuate some bullshit healthism that
says you're bad or a bad fat person if you eat junk food (I have a deep
and abiding love for junk food, as a matter of fact!), but when that is
your only option, the concept of choice is irrelevant. I mean,
intuitive eating is only an option when you can access and afford the
foods your body is craving.
And that's really the tip of the
freaking iceberg, but I hope the message is clear. For the most part,
your fat acceptance movement does not speak to us, and we're not coming
until y'all work out some shit.
Readers have left 110 comments. No.1 Untitled
Oh, bravo. This is excellent.
I do have to say that I disagree wrt discussing food access... we do this a LOT on the blogs. Certainly less so on fatshionista, but I don't think it's really accurate to say that the movement is not aware of the class issues inherent in food access. I think we're a fuck of a lot more aware than the government "health"-pushers, who are all "it's so easy to lose weight! All you have to do is afford lots of fresh fruits and vegetables and have time to cook and not be on the school's free lunch program!" Wrong on so many levels.
Blogger Meowser had a great quote about the "last acceptable prejudice" bullshit. She wrote that she disagrees that it's the last socially acceptable prejudice, but that "I will say that fat hate is one of the last forms of prejudice in which even most people who are subjected to it think they are getting exactly what they deserve." (Note, one of the last, not THE last.) I thought this was a powerful expression of what people are really reacting to when they say "fat is the last acceptable prejudice" -- I think it's equal parts being unaware of the continued pervasiveness of other forms of prejudice that they're not actively experiencing, and feeling legitimately like there's something different about fatphobia. I think the wholehearted embracing of fat prejudice by most of its victims is an interesting qualitative difference (at this point in time). But it doesn't make it the Last or the Worst or the Only. No.2 Untitled
"I will say that fat hate is one of the last forms of prejudice in which even most people who are subjected to it think they are getting exactly what they deserve."
I actually disagree with that. I think maybe fat people are more vocal about their internalization of fat hatred, but internalizing oppression is one of the key ways that oppression works. For example, women are often just as bad at perpetrating misogyny as men. Some LGBT folks think that the most "flamboyant" community members are giving the community a bad name. And there are definitely POC who think that internalize oppression and self-hatred as well.
Wrt the food access stuff, I have heard it framed in terms of class, but not about race and the specific ways that POC neighborhoods are systematically denied access to foods, and how that relates to structural racism. No.3 Untitled
<i>For example, women are often just as bad at perpetrating misogyny as men. Some LGBT folks think that the most "flamboyant" community members are giving the community a bad name.</i>
Both good points... I've seen the misogyny one a lot, I'll have to trust you on the second. I guess one of the most effective ways in which prejudice works is to try to reprogram people's ideas about objective reality... so you have plenty of fat people who think that fatties are objectively gluttonous, women who think that women are objectively intellectually inferior, etc. Fat hatred's probably just faddish in the media right now. (And, of course, it's easy to ignore any bigotry of which you are not the object.)
Anyway, really a fantastic post. No.4 Untitled
Whoops, did my itals wrong, but it's probably clear which parts are quoted. :) No.5 Untitled
"Racism is institutionalized into our laws, our classrooms, our work places, and our daily interactions. Just because some white folks think it's unacceptable to say the n-word, doesn't mean that racism is gone or that it's not "acceptable." When people in the fat acceptance movement say that fat is the last acceptable oppression, it alienates and invalidates the struggles of people of color, who know first-hand that racism not only exists, but that it is also very much "acceptable" in polite society."
I actually completely disagree with this. Racism is NOT acceptable in polite society, and you know it. I'm not saying it isn't still around, but how can you say it's institutionalized in our laws, when specific laws have been enacted countless times that outlaw discrimination? As a white person (in the South, no less) who makes every effort to confront prejudice whenever I do see it, I just don't see how your assertion is true. Every instance of racism I've ever seen has been loudly condemned from all quarters, over and over again. Workplaces and daily interactions around here are pretty much racism-free. There are no articles in the paper about the "black epidemic;" there are no websites about "how to look less ethnic;" etc. Fat prejudice is most definitely more mainstreamed, less socially acceptable, and less addressed by anti-discrimination laws than racism.
Do you really think that women of color are still excluded from what's considered to be beautiful? All the various cultural icons who aren't white just... don't register with you, or are somehow presented as less than? Do you really think Halle Berry is presented as "pretty for a black girl?" I sure don't.
I'm not mad. Just want some clarity there. Like I said, I'm white so I'm sure I don't see it the same way you do, but come on now. It's certainly not just all over the place like it was in the 1950's, when my mom got in trouble for drinking from a "colored" water fountain. Is it just because I'm young? I live in a city? I'm naive somehow? You're sounding like there's been no progress whatsoever wrt racism in this country, and I just disagree with that. No.6 Untitled
So you, as a white person, say that your daily experiences are racism-free? Gee, I wonder why that is.
I mean, really. It's attitudes like this that drive people of color away from the FA movement. If you don't believe us when we say that racism has not gone away and that we experience it in every single aspect of our lives, then that's really telling. No.7 Untitled
Not completely on topic, but I'm interested in hearing more about appropriation and cultural theft. It puts a name to something that I have been vaguely uncomfortable with but haven't had words (or a political understanding) of. No.8 Untitled
I didn't say I didn't believe it hadn't gone AWAY. I didn't say I didn't EXPERIENCE it as a white person. I said I don't see it being "instituionalized by our laws," etc. I said I don't see women of color being excluded from beauty standards. Who's driving who away, here? How else can I ask these question? No.9 Untitled
It's difficult to separate the concept of the personal social circle from society in general. I know, for instance, that I will not hear racist remarks in my personal social group. When I go outside of that social group through work, school, volunteering, etc., I find it much harder to define what's acceptable in "polite society." I've had people work side by side with me to advocate for women, animals and nontraditional religious groups, then turn around and advise me to make sure I move into a "nice white neighborhood" if I was going to live alone. Because of that person's advocation for certain civil rights, I'd made assumptions about their viewpoints on all civil rights, and was mistaken. It's easy for PNOC to fool themselves into thinking that racism is something that happens elsewhere when we surround ourselves with non-racists. It's easy because we are not subjected to it every single day of our lives. It is impossible for us to have a true perspective on it because we do not experience it, or if we do it isn't in the same way. But to deny that it is still a problem in the larger society is a matter of ignorance, whether deliberate or otherwise. It is not as overt as it was 50 years ago, but the fact that some progress has been made does not mean that the end is in sight.
As fat people, however, we are subjected to a different kind of prejudice. It's difficult for a person subjected to one kind of prejudice to compare to a pain they can't relate to, since everybody's pain is entirely subjective. It has similar attributes, and dissimilar attributes. The degree depends a lot on the environment. I do think it's possible (and important) to make substantive comparisons between Racism/Classism/sizism without making valuative comparisons.
As for the cultural theft, I cry no contest. Again I don't have much of a perspective, as I don't particularly care who decides to go around in a kilt. More power to them as long as they don't have to bend over in public. I've heard arguments that it's disrespectful (which I tend to agree more strongly with when it comes to symbols and rituals of spirituality) and that it promotes the mainstream acceptability of a culture. As I don't really have a culture to steal, I will bow to the authority of those who are the victims of the theft. No.10 Untitled
"As fat people, however, we are subjected to a different kind of prejudice."
I agree, absolutely. Each oppression has its own context, its own history, and it's on set of attributes. Fat oppression is bad of its own merit, which is why it's unnecessary and insulting for people to say "fat is the new black" or make some sort of other kind of false analogy in an attempt at validating the struggle. No.11 Untitled
are no articles in the paper about the "black epidemic;" there are no websites about "how to look less ethnic;" etc. Fat prejudice is most definitely more mainstreamed, less socially acceptable, and less addressed by anti-discrimination laws than racism.
So because racism isn't blatant, lauded by your newspaper and in <i>your</i> face, you don't believe that it exists? What about the newspaper articles continuing notions of Black thuggery, absenteeism and monolithic failure?
And please! There are thousands of websites on how to look less ethnic! They're not geared towards you, but ask any dark skinned woman what skin bleaching cream to pick up at the local Target or Walmart-- they're advertised right there in the magazines telling Black women to straigten their hair (impose White beauty standards on Black folks much?). Ask your Asian friends how many of them lighten their hair or wear contacts to appear less Asian and more Anglo.
WoC not excluded from beauty standards? Really? Why not waltz your way down to the dark end of the hair care aisle and ponder why it is seen as socially unacceptable in law firms, courts and board rooms for a woman to enter with out the concoctions of lye and sodium hydroxide found in the aisle on their heads.
Show me even a mere two or three a non-biracial Black woman with natural hair on the cover you high end beauty magazines... ever.
No.12 Untitled
Thank you for posting this. I have posted my comments to you elsewhere, but would like to add them here as well.
I also need to say that if I hear the "fat is the last acceptable oppression" meme one more time, I am going to scream (louder).
I have been hearing this a lot lately and it makes me profoundly uncomfortable, as do comparisons of fat acceptance to historic civil rights race movements. We should be able to agree that there are various systems of oppression and that each has its own characteristics, without needing to validate our experiences by comparing them.
At minimum, folks in the fat acceptance movement need to take serious stock of their own position in the world, and how their privilege may be blockading their understanding of how other peoples' experiences, identities, and embodiments change the way they experience their fat and how their fat is experienced by the world at large.
Absolutely.
I feel that one of the barricades to that is the generally-held notion that fat=privilege, in the sense that fat people are perceived to be lazy and greedy (behaviours that would not be made possible without a certain amount of privilege-afforded comfort). I feel that there is an impulse to react to this notion by disowning all possible connections to privilege. And again, it comes back to comparing systems of oppression--people who have been on the receiving end of oppressive behaviour within one system are hesitant to believe that they can be the unconscious (or otherwise) enacters of privilege within other systems.
I want to speak on is how disappointing it is that I've rarely seen people in the fat acceptance movement address access as it relates to food. It's simple: the poorer your neighborhood, the less access you have to nutritionally-rich, affordable food.
I have been thinking about this a lot lately, and just last night was talking to my mum about it. She works at a hospital in the inner city (where we live), and the hospital itself has actually closed down cafeterias and replaced them fast food franchises in the building. That says a lot about their commitment to their patients' nutrition.
I feel like your post has raised a lot of concerns to which there are currently no solutions. But I think awareness is an important first step, and so I hope that lots of people read this. Thank you for writing it.
I would also like to contribute to the discussion here in the comments above, to say that I am a white woman and I do witness instances of institutionalized racism almost daily. It may not be as "up front" as the examples used above, but that's the problem--it is so insidious, and if it is not directed at you, it is SO easy to overlook. I know it took me years to be able to spot more subtle forms of discrimination in its natural habitat, so to speak, but once I did they became impossible to ignore.
I know this is a pretty played-out maneuver by now, but if you are looking as hard as you can and you still can't see how privilege moves in your life every day, then you need to unpack your invisible knapsack:
http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html No.13 Untitled
"Fat acceptance bloggers are guilty of the same sins of white feminism in that there is often a wholesale grouping of all fat people under the same oppression umbrella, with little or cursory examination of how things like race, class, sexuality, gender and gender presentation, ability, and age play into the fat equation."
I've seen those factors discussed a lot in the fatosphere as well as in books recommended by the fat acceptance movement. Maybe we're not reading the same blogs?
And I have to agree with Fay. Yes, unfortunately racism still exists, but it is not accepted/condoned/encouraged. E.g., Michael Richards was eviscerated for his so-called improv comedy bit involving a digsusting racial slur. How many comics do you see taken to task for their fat jokes? If POC were treated in the media the way fat people are, there would be an uproar. Can you imagine characters wearing T-shirts that say "No Blacks Please?" Yet it's acceptable for fictional (and sadly real) people to wear T-shirts/sport bumper stickers that say "No Fatties Please."
That's just the tip of the iceberg. (And I'm not comparing oppressions here. I'm saying one oppression is fashionable and permitted. The other is highly unacceptable and considered downright tacky, inhumane, and uneducated.) No.14 Untitled
So things like racial profiling, predatory lending, unequal access to health care, environmental racism, and the black glass ceiling aren't examples of how people of color are oppressed in very public and systematic ways?
I have also been personally witness to incredibly offensive Asian jokes and offensive comments about black folks and latin@s that were made without comment or protest from the other white folks in the room. And this is not just my experience, either. No.15 Untitled
Yes, unfortunately racism still exists, but it is not accepted/condoned/encouraged.
It absolutely is. But it's been around longer, so people have gotten better at accepting, condoning, and encouraging it in sneaky, underhanded ways. (For instance, using Halle Berry and her European features as an example of African-American beauty being celebrated.)
And quite possibly you're just worse at noticing it. Think about this: a thin person seeing an article about a push for better child nutrition to combat the obesity epidemic doesn't SEE an example of fat hatred. They would say "there's nothing here saying that fat people are disgusting or unacceptable; I don't see bigotry here at all." We recognize talk of the "obesity epidemic" or about fat as the result of overeating as a problem because we're aware of the problem; those who are privileged or complicit see it as objective reality. No.16 Untitled
Plus, I never even SAID "racism doesn't exist." Uncle. You win. I can't ask anything without words getting put in my mouth. My apologies. No.17 Untitled
Excellent post, Tara. And so many of the responses to it embody exactly what you mean.
I'm curious as to how people can't take WOC at their word about their own lived experiences of racism, but expect them to be a part of a movement which is supposed to be a response to experiences of being considered "fat"? I mean really?
And I guess its a bit too much to try and bring up how crazypants ideas like intersectionality might affect this, by which I mean being a woman of color *and* being considered fat.
No.18 Re:
Think about this: a thin person seeing an article about a push for better child nutrition to combat the obesity epidemic doesn't SEE an example of fat hatred. They would say "there's nothing here saying that fat people are disgusting or unacceptable; I don't see bigotry here at all." We recognize talk of the "obesity epidemic" or about fat as the result of overeating as a problem because we're aware of the problem; those who are privileged or complicit see it as objective reality. — FillyjonkThis is fantastic example of how privilege works! Thanks for posting it. No.19 Untitled
Tara said:
"So things like racial profiling, predatory lending, unequal access to health care, environmental racism, and the black glass ceiling aren't examples of how people of color are oppressed in very public and systematic ways?"
Other than racial profiling -- which is soundly condemned even though it is still practiced -- the other things you list are not unique to POC.
"I have also been personally witness to incredibly offensive Asian jokes and offensive comments about black folks and latin@s that were made without comment or protest from the other white folks in the room. And this is not just my experience, either."
And I've been in that same situation where the offensive joke-tellers were shouted down.
Fillyjonk said:
"It absolutely is. But it's been around longer, so people have gotten better at accepting, condoning, and encouraging it in sneaky, underhanded ways."
Sorry, but "accepted/condoned encouraged" does not gel with "sneaky and underhanded." That's kind of like my whole point.
I see racism, classism, ableism, and sexism. Yes, I do. But at least lip service is paid (and at most initiatives are taken) toward the fact that those -isms are UNacceptable. Outside of the fatosphere, the same is not true of fatism. In fact, you have those who actively call for more shaming and discrimination to "motivate" us to lose weight.
Black girls who have Halle Berry held up as an example of beauty is a far, far cry from actively pushing the idea that discriminating MORE against blacks will somehow benefit them. No.20 Untitled
"I'm curious as to how people can't take WOC at their word about their own lived experiences of racism, but expect them to be a part of a movement which is supposed to be a response to experiences of being considered "fat"? I mean really?"
Delux, I hear you. I mean, I knew that there would be flak here and elsewhere (http://bigliberty.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/this-is-going-to-be-unpopular/), but it's almost comical the way that some of the responses have echoed the exact same complaints that I brought up in the first place.
Like I said, there's a lot of shit that needs to change before we'll ever feel welcome. No.21 Untitled
I haven't the time to read all the comments, unfortunately, but I think I've got a general picture of the discussion here:
"We don't feel welcome in the movement."
"Yes, you do!"
— SummaryIs that about the shape of it? Yes, it's true that racism (along with most other -isms) is condemned much more often (and loudly and publically) than fatism. However, that doesn't mean it's gone. An institution can have codified rules which explicitly condemns racism even while implicitly being racist. A person can abhor racism and still harbor racist thoughts and actions. A person can shout down the joke about (insert group here) and still chuckle at it, and repeat it at a later date when it's okay because it's just them and a few friends and none of them are racists. Yes, we who condemn racism should get some credit for trying... but if we allow ourselves to be satisfied with just that, then we aren't really trying. Condemning racism doesn't excuse us from examining ourselves for traces of it. The absolute worst thing we can do is point at the gains that have been made, the lip service that's been paid, the coatings of paint that have been thrown over the problem and say, "Look at how far we've all come. What have you got left to complain about?" No.22 Untitled
I think this is VERY profound. Its a great conversation and a very NECESSARY conversation that occurs in all social justice movements, to keep people accountable to their political position and privilege.
As a relatively thin, white female, its very tempting for me to hide from my privilege as white and thin, and claim only my oppression as a woman. WHAT? That right there is oppression working, telling people that they cannot unite and acknowledge all forms of oppression, rather they must choose their own to fight for AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS, or they must ignore their privilege and how it operates in order to belong in a movement? So when white FA people decide that there is no racism, or they must rank oppressions, they're falling into the trap of divide and conquer, another trick in the old book of oppression that keeps EVERY wire in the birdcage intact (if you don't get the birdcage reference, google it.) No.23 Untitled
Thanks for this post. I'm pretty shocked at the nerve some people have to come onto the space of a woman of colour and tell her her experiences of racism are wrong. Jesus. How do we feel when a thin person comes onto our spaces and tells us our examples of how fat acceptance is condoned by overall society are bullshit? If a fat woman of colour is trying to tell you she's found racism to be just as acceptable in society as fat discrimination, maybe you should shut up and listen. No.24 Untitled
<em>"I will say that fat hate is one of the last forms of prejudice in which even most people who are subjected to it think they are getting exactly what they deserve."</em>
<em>I actually disagree with that. I think maybe fat people are more vocal about their internalization of fat hatred, but internalizing oppression is one of the key ways that oppression works. For example, women are often just as bad at perpetrating misogyny as men. Some LGBT folks think that the most "flamboyant" community members are giving the community a bad name. And there are definitely POC who think that internalize oppression and self-hatred as well.</em>
Which is why I actually said it was <em>one of the last</em> forms of oppression etc. etc., not <em>the</em> last. I'm well aware that other forms of "self-othering" exist (e.g. female rape apologists).
Frankly, I'm not sure exactly what it is you're asking us to do. All the subjects you raise here HAVE been talked about on SA blogs and on sites like Shakesville, on multiple occasions. But that, apparently, is not good enough for you. Please forgive my white Aspie ignorance, but what would be? What would make you feel welcome? No.25 Re:
But at least lip service is paid (and at most initiatives are taken) toward the fact that those -isms are UNacceptable. — worthyourweightI would argue that "lip service" is uneffectual and meaningless in any case, whether one is dealing with racism or fatphobia. I certainly wouldn't be satisfied with (or heaven forbid, grateful for) lip service paid to fat activism - and I don't think it should be marked as a sign of progress when discussing racism either. No.26 Untitled
Brilliant. I wasn't even aware that this was a dialogue that was occurring, but thanks for pointing this out. I'll be sure to check my own privilege around that.
You are so right on about the issue around food. I used to live in and around inner city Milwaukee for a few years. And clearly I grocery shopped in those neighborhoods. The food is shit there. And it's cheaper, quite frankly, to get a full meal at a fast food restaurant than it is to buy something healthier. How do we talk about the fact that eating shitty food is likely contributing to fatness, is also responsible for the diseases that are commonly attributed to fatness (although can't be scientifically proved definitively linked to fatness exclusively), and that the people eating that food may be a lot of POC, who can't afford better, and can't afford the healthcare needed to pay for the diseases potentially caused by the food or fatness they are forced to eat because of poverty? We often DO say, eating healthy is eating organic, green, locally grown food, and our food system is so messed up that the stuff you just get from the ground is more expensive than the stuff that is actually mechanically made.
No.27 Untitled
Tara, I'm not even thinking about feeling 'welcomed' at this point. Having woc in a fat acceptance movement means actually dealing w/ woc as equals and accepting their words about their bodies, and their lived experiences, and clearly thats not about to happen anytime soon. No.28 Untitled
Please forgive my white Aspie ignorance, but what would be? What would make you feel welcome?
Not to speak for Tara, but I think non-defensive dialogue would be a start.
Shakesville is actually a good analogy (and here I am in fact speaking for Tara, in the sense that I'm parroting something she just explained to me elsewhere): it's a feminist blog, but it is 100% aware of other forms of oppression and how they relate to, affect, and are affected by sexism and misogyny. Nobody there tries to justify feminism by explaining that women are the last group it's acceptable to discriminate against -- sexism doesn't have to be the worst or the only problem in order to be a valid social justice issue, and contributing to any social justice cause is recognized to be a feminist action. We need to be able to create an FA-focused environment that feels the same way. I'd like to think that SP comes close -- I know that all three of us are as aware of multiple social justice issues as I think it's possible for white middle-class able-bodied people to be. But that's not enough. No.29 Great Post
I just created an account so that I could thank you for this thought-provoking post. No.30 Untitled
"But that, apparently, is not good enough for you. Please forgive my white Aspie ignorance, but what would be? What would make you feel welcome?"
Well, listening to the voices of POC would be a good start. And making intersectionality a central part of the movement would be another step forward. On a blog level, banning the "fat is the new black" talk in the same way that diet talk has been banned would also be a step forward. No.31 Untitled
So here is my question, do you want to be a part of the FA movement? We want to have you clearly, but part of what comes with privilege is a sort of ignorance or those less privileged than us. Your life and your goals and your knowledge are something we can never have. Some who have posted here are clearly in this sort of insulated existence and get scared when that gets challenged. The bottom line is that it sucks, super sucks to be discriminated against in any way shape or form. I do not know what it is like to be anything other than white, and I would not begin to tell you that your feelings aren't valid. But if you want people to understand, you, you are going to have to explain over and over why they should. It's not fair, and you shouldn't have to do that, but that is how change comes about. People are idiots, but some people are idiots because that is all they know, well meaning idiots if you will, and the more patient and long suffering you are with them, the better you get your point across. No.32 Untitled
"We want to have you clearly,"
"But if you want people to understand, you, you are going to have to explain over and over why they should. "
These two sentences do *not* go together.
No.33 Untitled
"So here is my question, do you want to be a part of the FA movement?"
I consider myself to be a part of the FA movement already. One can be part of a movement and still have critiques of it. No.34 Untitled
I'm really glad that you posted this. As a white woman in the FA movement (who has some first hand experience with racism in the white feminist movement) I appreciate the framework you provided so I can do some hard thinkin'. No.35 Untitled
@Alexandra Erin:
"The absolute worst thing we can do is point at the gains that have been made, the lip service that's been paid, the coatings of paint that have been thrown over the problem and say, 'Look at how far we've all come. What have you got left to complain about?'"
This is not what I said at all, and I think it's comical how anyone disagreeing with the original post in part or whole is having words put into their mouths, accused of being idiots and isolated, etc.
Here's what perturbed me about Tara's rant: she takes fat bloggers to task for not doing something that they actually, in fact, do. Rather than wagging her finger, why does she not bring to the table what she feels is lacking or not explored in enough depth? No, instead she ends her rant effectively saying, "I'm going over here, away from you, with my arms folded. I will be giving you the silent treatment until you meet me halfway. Oh, and by halfway I mean all the way because I'm staying over here."
@Weedevine:
I've never seen any FAer deny racism exists. This being argued in these comments against anyone who disagrees is nothing but straw.
@Becky:
No one is telling Tara what her experiences are. I've only seen people talking about their own.
@Lesley:
I said "*at the least* lip service" and "*at the most* initiatives taken." I'm curious as to why you ignored the latter. Not to mention the fact that lips have to move first before changes are implemented. No.36 Untitled
WYW, Tara is saying that in her experience, racism is still acceptable in society, and you're saying: "No, it isn't." How is that anything but telling her her experiences are wrong? Maybe you haven't seen it in your experiences, but maybe as a white person (I'm assuming, my apologies if my assumptions are incorrect) you just don't notice it. How would you feel if a thin person came on your blog and said: "Fat discrimination isn't encouraged, and I can say that because I've never seen it."? No.37 Untitled
"Now, I don't see race...People tell me I'm white, and I believe them, because I own a lot of Jimmy Buffett albums."
Stephen Colbert can be colorblind, why can't all of you? </snark>
No.38 Untitled
Delux
I don't feel that the two statements I made are mutually exclusive, in that I feel that this community is not exclusive by nature, skinny/fat/black/white/catholic or Jew we all deserve to feel good about ourselves and our bodies. We all deserve good health care, and respect from our fellow man. However, clearly as I stated above, their are some who don't understand this and I don't think it is fair to use their ignorance as a basis to assume that you are not welcome in the community. If you want to change their minds then do so. This blog is an excellent start. That is what I meant when I said you would have to explain yourself over and over again. If you don't want to change their minds then fine, but don't assume that they speak for all of us. No.39 Untitled
Tara- I guess I was confused because the end of your post read "your fat acceptance movement does not speak to us, and we're not coming until y'all work out some shit." The exclusive nature of the language led me to believe that you felt you were not a part of the community and didn't want to be a part until we worked through this shit. That is the line that I take question with. I want you here, others want you here, and we are trying we are but it takes time. I think it just makes me feel hopeless and a little like my hands are tied on the matter. So let me ask you another question in a far less inflammatory way, what am I, one solitary fat girl in Las Vegas, supposed to do to help? Give me something proactive, please. No.40 Untitled
@Becky:
"WYW, Tara is saying that in her experience, racism is still acceptable in society, and you're saying: 'No, it isn't.' How is that anything but telling her her experiences are wrong? Maybe you haven't seen it in your experiences, but maybe as a white person (I'm assuming, my apologies if my assumptions are incorrect) you just don't notice it. How would you feel if a thin person came on your blog and said: 'Fat discrimination isn't encouraged, and I can say that because I've never seen it.'?"
I would debate with them the same way I have here and provide examples. I have not seen anything yet from Tara that gives an example of racism being acceptable in society at large.
You're doing nothing but what you accuse me of: telling me my experiences are wrong. On top of it, you lend more validity to Tara's experience than mine because you assume I'm white. No.41 Untitled
WYW, even if the blogs to which you were referring are already addressing the issues in a satisfactory manner, why do you think that POC are not drawn to these discussions? Why do you think so many WOC bloggers only feel safe having these discussions in private spaces?
I mean, regardless of whether or not the fatosphere is talking about these things, or whether or not fat is or is not the last acceptable oppression, the FA movement is very very white. I don't think *anyone* can deny that, and I would hope that people would recognize it as a problem. No.42 Untitled
Tara,
I definitely am now aware, thanks to your post, that some WOC/POC like yourself feel marginalized even within the FA movement. Honestly, it had not occurred to me before because I don't know the ethnicities of many readers/commenters of my blog and other blogs. Pretty much only the ones with their pictures for avatars.
I do see discussion about another group that feels marginalized within FA, and that is the so-called "super-sized" and/or those with mobility issues. I think the movement is constantly trying to include everyone. So I'm glad you brought this to everyone's attention, even if I disagreed with the specific indictments you made against FA bloggers. No.43 Re:
I mean, regardless of whether or not the fatosphere is talking about these things, or whether or not fat is or is not the last acceptable oppression, the FA movement is very very white. I don't think *anyone* can deny that, and I would hope that people would recognize it as a problem. — TaraPeople do recognize it as a problem, I think, but too many seem to be identifying the source of that problem as people of color themselves. It's the old, "you shouldn't be offended because I didn't mean to offend you" trope. And I feel like far too many people with privilege (both in the fatosphere and the world-at-large) still feel it's the responsibility of the oppressed to educate those complicit in their oppression (however unaware of that complicity they may be). No.44 Untitled
I had to register to comment. I remember that discussion at Fatshionista and can't say I was able to follow it to the end. That said I enjoyed this post quite a bit. Tara I think what you said in this comment is very very important and thank you for saying it.
"I consider myself to be a part of the FA movement already. One can be part of a movement and still have critiques of it." No.45 Untitled
<em>Wrt the food access stuff, I have heard it framed in terms of class, but not about race and the specific ways that POC neighborhoods are systematically denied access to foods, and how that relates to structural racism.</em>
I am sure that Liss over at Shakesville would absolutely <em>love</em> to have a guest post or even a series of guest posts about that, if you wanted to write one. Hell, I'd put a guest post about it on FatFu if you wanted to do one for us, too. Or, if you wanted to create your own blog and put it on the Fatosphere feed you'd be perfectly welcome to do that.
But could *I* write that myself? No, I doubt I could do the subject justice. I tend to write about things I feel I <em>can</em> do justice; if I don't write about them it does not mean I don't care, it means that I think others have already said it better, or could say it better, than I could.
Anyway, I don't know who said "fat is the new black," but I certainly don't think that way at all. I think when people say "fat is the last socially acceptable form of prejudice," they mean that among white liberal urbane hypereducated types, it's considered okay to snark off on fatties overtly the way it is not okay to snark off on anyone else overtly. But as you said, white liberal urbane types aren't everybody, and overt snark isn't everything. No.46 Untitled
"And I feel like far too many people with privilege (both in the fatosphere and the world-at-large) still feel it's the responsibility of the oppressed to educate those complicit in their oppression (however unaware of that complicity they may be)."
Ignatz, you're totally right. And it's been reiterated in the comments and elsewhere by folks who think that it's a problem, but who still want POC to get rid of it, when we're not the ones who started it in the first place.
On another note to everyone who's commented - I'm about to leave the computer for awhile, but I've definitely appreciated this discussion! No.47 Untitled
<em>Wrt the food access stuff, I have heard it framed in terms of class, but not about race and the specific ways that POC neighborhoods are systematically denied access to foods, and how that relates to structural racism.</em>
I am sure that Liss over at Shakesville would absolutely <em>love</em> to have a guest post or even a series of guest posts about that, if you wanted to write one. Hell, I'd put a guest post about it on FatFu if you wanted to do one for us, too. Or, if you wanted to create your own blog and put it on the Fatosphere feed you'd be perfectly welcome to do that.
But could *I* write that myself? No, I doubt I could do the subject justice. I tend to write about things I feel I <em>can</em> do justice; if I don't write about them it does not mean I don't care, it means that I think others have already said it better, or could say it better, than I could.
Anyway, I don't know who said "fat is the new black," but I certainly don't think that way at all. I think when people say "fat is the last socially acceptable form of prejudice," they mean that among white liberal urbane hypereducated types, it's considered okay to snark off on fatties overtly the way it is not okay to snark off on anyone else overtly. But as you said, white liberal urbane types aren't everybody, and overt snark isn't everything. No.48 Re:
I said "*at the least* lip service" and "*at the most* initiatives taken." I'm curious as to why you ignored the latter. Not to mention the fact that lips have to move first before changes are implemented.
— worthyourweightFair enough - it's because I see this argument made frequently and I think it's poorly reasoned. So far as "initiatives" go, for one example, I think recent assaults on affirmative action prove that these strides are hardly permanent fixtures, and they do not mean that the systemic racism that inspired their inception has necessarily changed. In terms of lips moving - that may be the case, and it's certainly the opinion of a lot of folks. And that's fine. My position tends to be more radical, though, and lip service, though it may draw attention of a kind, is not something that impresses me. No.49 Untitled
Meowser,
"I think when people say 'fat is the last socially acceptable form of prejudice,' they mean that among white liberal urbane hypereducated types, it's considered okay to snark off on fatties overtly the way it is not okay to snark off on anyone else overtly. But as you said, white liberal urbane types aren't everybody, and overt snark isn't everything."
That's not how I mean it at all. I mean that it is acceptable to ask fat people to pay for two airline seats. If a white supremacist claimed his flight was ruined by being seated next to a black person, would such a proposal as the purchase of two seats be brooked?
I mean that fat people can be fired for being fat in all but, what, one state and two cities.
I mean that fat people are told *out loud* that they are less than. Those telling us that are supported in doing so from almost every quarter: the government, corporations, the media, and even our own families.
I thank God that racism is looked down upon as the deplorable practice it is. Does that mean closet racists don't get away with it? Sadly no. Does that mean racism has been eradicated? Far from it. But making it rude and not tolerated "in public" is a first step. Unfortunately, that is not a step that's even come close to being taken WRT fatism. No.50 Untitled
Two comments.
1) "last acceptable prejudice." You know what the majority of the top results are when you Google that? Go ahead, guess. I'll wait.
"Anti-Catholic." Seriously. Go look. You can also find prejudice against gays and lesbians, immigrants, and even "good-looking people" described in this way. Why does this matter? Because it means that using this phrase is sloppy and useless rhetoric. IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING. Any member of a group that thinks it's experiencing prejudice can, through a narrow enough perspective, attempt to claim the moral high ground of "last acceptable prejudice." It accomplishes nothing, because it has no clear meaning and is completely un-verifiable, and yet its destructive power, of marginalizing and alienating other groups who experience oppression for their own identities, is vast.
The ONLY reason to keep using this rhetoric is if one truly feels that an attempt to get a bigger piece of the oppression pie is more important than including those with multiple oppressed identities in your movement as participants and allies. In the case of fat acceptance, this translates as: is it more important to attempt to win the battle over who has it worse, than it is to make sure that people of color, queer people, poor people, immigrant people, differently-abled people, etc. etc. feel welcomed and listened to and valued in the fat activist community?
"The last acceptable prejudice" is worthless as rhetoric but is poison to the attempt to work against size prejudice. It harmss far more than it helps.
2) In this debate over "polite society"... what hypothetical society is it that we are discussing here? What part of society does that Oklahoma state Representative belong to, you know, the one who went on the latest "homosexuals are recruiting our children and are worse than terrorists" rant? She's a middle-aged white lady, wearing a suit, standing at a podium, helping to run the government. She's a far cry from some mythical "impolite society" (which is what, exactly? Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel's monthly backyard Possom and Liker Bar-B-Q and Immigrant Hunt?) Rush Limbaugh's filthy comments about Hillary Clinton are broadcast daily to millions of listeners in the US. The debate over immigration, with its thinly-veiled racism, is the subject of front-page headlines and debates both in Congress and on the campaign trail.
Talk to many POC who have lived in various places throughout the US, and you'll find out that some of them actually prefer life in the American South than in the North. Why? As one friend of mine put it, "at least in the South, they're open about their racism so you know who you're dealing with. In the North, they hide it behind this mask of politeness, but the thinking is the same just underneath. Since you can't see it as clearly, you never know who to trust, who's being polite to your face and racist behind your back."
I imagine many commenters here like to think of themselves as members of "polite society," and yet I'm seeing white people say to a woman of color things like "that's not true and you know it." Calling someone a liar is pretty impolite, particularly when done in a backhanded, passive-aggressive way. So until you can explain to the rest of us how to tell apart the "polite society" we're supposed to only pay attention to from the rest of y'all who may look sharp and sound smart but spout the same kind of smarmy, privileged, oppressive shit as this hypothetical "impolite society" we're supposed to write off, I suggest you shut the hell up about other people's experiences. No.51 Untitled
@worthyourweight:
You see me quoting you anywhere? No.52 Untitled
But if you want people to understand, you, you are going to have to explain over and over why they should. It's not fair, and you shouldn't have to do that, but that is how change comes about. People are idiots, but some people are idiots because that is all they know, well meaning idiots if you will, and the more patient and long suffering you are with them, the better you get your point across. — Holli KnepperNo. The argument that "this is all they know" is ridiculous. There is information available to people that want to find it - ESPECIALLY if we're talking in terms of the fatosphere. It is not the responsibility of POC to educate. Tara (or any other POC) does not have to explain anything over & over. To put this kind of responsibility onto POC implies that it's our problem to fix (and, arguably, that it was/is our problem to begin with & white people are just sitting around waiting for us to tell them what to do). I understand that you're trying to care, but asking Tara to give you <i>proactive</i> ways to "help," is dismissive. You know how to find them. No.53 Untitled
Does that mean closet racists don't get away with it? Sadly no. Does that mean racism has been eradicated? Far from it. But making it rude and not tolerated "in public" is a first step. — worthyourweightFirst, racism is a lot bigger than "closet racists" as you're using it. We're not talking about someone calling you a spick behind your back. Fighting the "closet racists" is arguably a lot easier than trying to combat the institution of racism and how it's ingrained in our western culture as a whole. Which brings me to it not being tolerated "in public." I don't know where you live but I'm glad that it's apparently a place that is free of white privilege, which by the way, is pretty tolerated, to say the least, "in public." No.54 Untitled
@Elusis:
Like I just commented at my own blog, maybe I should reword this belief that "fat is the last acceaptable prejudice" to "fat is the last prejudice that is allowed to be flaunted in public without fear of recourse."
Obviously I disagree that such an assertion is sloppy, useless, rhetorical, or meaningless or else I wouldn't have used it. No one is trying to exclude anyone by stating this belief -- at least I'm not. If anything, I want fat people included with those groups against whom it is not acceptable to degrade out loud and in public. I truly believe that is a first step towards the more important rights. Almost a "fake it until you make it." If it's not allowed in the public discourse because people simply refuse to tolerate it, maybe fat hatred would not get spread the way it does.
This is NOT a question of who has it worse. That's sloppy interpreting of my position. It is simply what is allowed in public? What are the consequences if someone says something racist versus something fatist? (E.g., Imus)
No FA blogger has ever said (that I've read) that anyone is unwelcome. Many of us ARE poor, queer, differently abled.
About your questions on polite society -- are the examples you give being permitted without outcry?
It's scary to me that POC think Northerners are "just racist underneath." Evidence of this is one thing, but a generalization like that is as racist as they come.
Forget "polite society." Let's talk what's allowed in public.
Very sad you had to resort to insults at the end. Do you see me personally attacking anyone here? No, you don't. Your doing so greatly undermines your argument.
@Alexandra Erin:
Forgive me if I assumed parts of your comment were directed at me when you use the same phrases I did and even the same examples, such as, "a person can shout down the joke" and "lip service." No.55 Untitled
Jen,
Privilege and institional racism are not the same as being verbally abused in public. That's not to say they don't exist or aren't vitally important to fight. It's frustrating I even have to put a caveat, but there is a lot of changing the tack of the argument going on here. No.56 Untitled
ignatz- I think "complicit" is the key word in your post. If some one is on here posting, asking questions, engaging in debate, they are not complicit in their ignorance. They are trying to figure this out along with everyone else. And yes, if you want things to change you have to be proactive about it. I have to go out and champion FA. It is not your responsibility to educate the uneducated but your gift, your choice, and a part of the greater good that you could give to society.
On a side note- I still haven't gotten an answer as to what I am supposed to do to assist in making woc comfortable in this movement. I got the ban the "accepted prejudice" part, and while on a whole I don't advocate banning any words (a little 1984 for me) Ok, sure, if that's what it will take to make you feel comfortable. What else am I supposed to do? I think if you are going to point out the problem it is useful to those who would like to help fix it if you point out solutions as well. No.57 Re:
Jen,
Privilege and institional racism are not the same as being verbally abused in public. That's not to say they don't exist or aren't vitally important to fight. It's frustrating I even have to put a caveat, but there is a lot of changing the tack of the argument going on here. — worthyourweightMaybe they aren't the same but when you use phrases like "in public" and "closet racists" you are talking about overt racism in a way that seems to diminish covert & institutionalized racism that happens in public all the time. So just because it may not be a verbal assault, does not mean it's not abuse/oppression and potentially just as painful (if not more so, because of ease that these kinds of things are excused, case in point). No.58 Thank you.
I tried to post a comment but I think it didn't make it.
Thank you for posting this entry.
As a young woman of color most of the time I do not feel represented in the fat acceptance movement. Unfortunately, when I try to express this people are defensive and divisive and in the end the back and forth contributes nothing to the greater conversation we are trying to have.
This makes me generally shy away from the movement as a whole. But on the other hand these kinds of issues make me want to stay and keep expressing myself, even if it does anger people, because these issues do not go away until people start talking about them openly and honestly.
I want people to see and hear how I feel. Not telling me how I'm supposed to feel.
I agree with this post up until the last sentence.
We can't sit with our arms crossed and wait for the movement to change, we must make it change with our words and contributions. Sharing our experiences is supposed to make us all stronger.
Lastly, the fat acceptance movement is destroying itself. People are so busy arguing with each other that they forget what fat acceptance is supposed to be about in the first place. No.59 Untitled
" It's scary to me that POC think Northerners are "just racist underneath." Evidence of this is one thing, but a generalization like that is as racist as they come — WorthYourWeight." I am a black woman who lives in the North. If you are not a person of color you are not going to get hard evidence. Unlike overt "I hate you because you're (insert whatever color/ethnicity here)" covert subtle racism is hard to see and identify concretely if you're not experiencing it on a daily basis. But it is alive and well in the Northern part of the US. Have you ever asked a person of color about their experience of racism where they live or have lived? If not I will tell you. I experience undercover racism that is associated with living in the North every single day. Every. Day. What Elusis said about a lot of people of color preferring to deal with in your face racism is actually something that I've found to be true. I am in communities with other woman of color from all over the world and that is a valid observation on Elusis' part. If you think it's scary that people feel this way, think about how scary it is to experience it every day. No.60 Untitled
I wrote such a long comment that I'm going to cross-post it on my own blog. Having been involved in many organizations that work toward shared understanding/awareness between cultural groups, I find that these types of discussion often turn into "I'm more oppressed than you" pissing contests, which is never productive. I think Tara is right on, and the white members of FA need to listen to what she says and try to understand it. It's not a personal attack - it's the way things are. Oppression dialogs are not productive if you are unable to examine your own privilege first and foremost. Getting defensive does not help anything, and only demonstrates an unwillingness to openly participate in what is a very important and needed conversation. Saying "we're not racist!!!" is not productive. I see comments/posts all the time from people who come from positions of privilege and only want to point out where they have lost it in being a person of size. Being fat is not like being a member of another marginalized group because there is not that history of systemic oppression. Fat people as a group are not a race, religion or sexual orientation. Why is that? Well, according to mainstream thinking, "fat" is not an identity, but a temporal state of being one should strive to change. We bitch and moan alllll the time about how people think that we could just hop on the treadmill and become thin, right? Well when our culture tells POC that they are less-than (usually through much more subtle, insidious means than overt racism, btw), they are not telling them to exercise to become more aesthetically pleasing. They are telling them that they can *never* meet that cultural ideal, simply based on their race. No matter what they do, they will always be the other. Yes, there are WOC who are presented as "beautiful" - and they are also as a rule very white-looking, and their beauty is coded with all kinds of negative messages, like being 'exotic' and possessing animalistic sexuality, etc. WOC are expected to look white, act white, and to adhere to very strict modes of behavior while almost entirely eschewing their own cultural identities. If you are arguing about the existence of racism today ('but we've come so far!'), you have blinders on and need to take them off. I encourage everyone to read <a href="http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html"White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack">this article</a>. It includes a list of the daily effects of white privilege <a href="http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html#daily">here</a>, and is considered the bare minimum required reading for understanding discussions of race. Yes, being fat has its disadvantages, but there are many ways that the "oppression" model just does not apply to us. Fat people are not profiled by the police as potential criminals. Fat people are not historically associated with having been slaves to nonfat people. There have been fat presidents. There have yet to be any genocidal actions taken across fat people as a group. Fat people have never been segregated into their own specially designated schools, washroom facilities, drinking fountains, seating or other public facilities. While I have participated in groups/orgs dedicated to creating spaces for POC, I am still an outside perspective and can only try to understand how racism effects a person on a day-to-day basis. It is something that I am privileged enough not to have to deal with, and I feel it is my responsibility to learn more about what that experience is like and to work towards rejecting institutional and individual attitudes which reinforce these types of privilege. One way I try to do this is in learning not to deny the experiences of others based off my own perspective, which is likely to be skewed by that very privilege I was born into. Thanks for the post, Tara. I also think talking about cultural appropriation in terms of fatshion would be a great post in and of itself. I have always wondered what exactly causes the association fat clothing manufacturers/designers have in using traditional garments (saris, kimonos, etc) when dressing fat bodies. Hopefully you won't shy away from posting more on the subject, despite its being such a hot-button discussion. No.61 Untitled
Oops, guess we can't do HTML links? Here is the article I linked:
http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html
And here is the checklist from that same article:
http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html#daily No.62 Untitled
Jen- This is exactly what I am talking about. I come on the page, ask an honest question and clearly I am TRYING to find ways to help. I am braving all the people who disagree with me so that I can try and find a way to make POCs feel comfortable and your (personally not POC in general) basically telling me to fuck myself. Talk about dismissive. If I knew how to find ways to help don't you think I would? Why would I risk belittling comments from I am so flaming mad right now. What the hell do you want from me? I AM TRYING! and your telling me to find out for myself and if it's wrong oh well. Why don't you help me? Isn't this what it is about?
Helping each other? No.63 Re:
Oops, guess we can't do HTML links? — SasshatApologies, the current commenting system (which is temporary) uses its own set of tags. This will change soon! Until then, you can edit your comment using the pencil icon. Sorry for the off-topic interruption. :) No.64 Untitled
Jen- This is exactly what I am talking about. I come on the page, ask an honest question and clearly I am TRYING to find ways to help. I am braving all the people who disagree with me so that I can try and find a way to make POCs feel comfortable and your (personally not POC in general) basically telling me to fuck myself. Talk about dismissive. If I knew how to find ways to help don't you think I would? Why would I risk belittling comments from I am so flaming mad right now. What the hell do you want from me? I AM TRYING! and your telling me to find out for myself and if it's wrong oh well. Why don't you help me? Isn't this what it is about?
Helping each other?.
What are things to do? Well if you googled anti-racism information, there are lots of webpages and blogs about that. You could google for information about various ethnicities. You could go to the library and get out anti-racist books. You could read a memoir by someone who is a latina, or african-american or asian-american. You could read the essay linked above on unpacking white privilege.
Just in Tara's essay she gives examples. Not saying fat is the last acceptable prejudice. Learn about how your own privilege affects your experience, and listening to the experiences of others. Look at prevailing beauty standards and see how they are constructed in race and class based terms.
All of those things do not require POC to sit down with you and explain racism (or classism or sexism). You can do this work yourself. It may seem to you like this is an individual request for help, but POC (especially in lefty liberal circles) get asked to explain their lives on a regular basis. It is exhausting and aggravating to do so. It is not my responsibility to do racism 101 every time someone asks me to.
ps
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/02/how-not-to-be-insane-when-accused-of-racism/ No.65 Untitled
Julia- Thank you. I appreciate the options you gave me. You are assuming that I havn't done many these things already, which would be a false assumption. There is only so much I can glean from reading, after which point I want to talk to a real live person. That's where you come in, and Tara and any other POC that feels that enlightening someone is worth a little of their time. I'm sorry that you have to explain yourself so often. I truly must suck. But I would think, and I don't know here so it is just a conjecture, that if one person changes their mind, if stop racisim in just one person, then perhaps that is worth having to explain it a million times. Please tell me if I am way off base here.
Also to be more clear, I was asking specifically what I should do to make POCs feel more comfortable in the FA community. No.66 Untitled
Also, because I didn't give it enough credit, thank you, thank you, thank you for all the links and the advice. I am sure that there are many many people that will be helped by the information No.67 Untitled
Thank you for this post.
I'm white, Jewish and fat.
When I was in between 8th and 9th grade, I attended something called "Brotherhood and Sisterhood Camp" run by the National Association of Christians and Jews, which sought to sensitize young people to the racism, sexism and homophobia we had already absorbed. Lots of crying. It left me realizing that there was way more that I didn't know than that I did know. I am not always as humble as I was taught to be through that experience. I sometimes say or do things that are unintentionally hurtful. But I hope I just get back in there and try again. And learn to keep my mouth shut more the next time. Sometimes the best I can do, if I have an audience, is to give the microphone to someone else whose voice isn't hear clearly or often.
I mess up all the time. But I keep trying. Sometimes what stops me from talking about racism is my fear that I'm going to say it wrong, or that someone will think I'm saying that I understand something that I have no direct experience with.
I will try to share my knowledge about racism and health. There is a new documentary that will air soon on PBS called "Unnatural Causes" and it highlights the links between racism and poor health (and other underlying causes of poor health) that I think will be cause for discussion in the Fatosphere. Sometimes I shy away from talking about things pertaining to diabetes because I'm afraid I'll get slammed for not being "FA" enough -- but the reality is that diabetes sucks and if you can avoid getting it, that's a good thing to do. And people of color have diabetes, and complications of diabetes, at much higher rates than white people of similar economic status. And racism has everything to do with it.
I think if people in the fatosphere watched "Unnatural Causes" and discussed it, that might be a step in a positive direction. You can see when it will be broadcast by visiting pbs.org and locating your local station. No.68 Untitled
Above, when I said "I will try to share my knowledge about racism and health." I meant my "book knowledge" -- as in journal articles, highlighting the exceptional work done in this area by people like Dr. Camara Jones and the many researchers working on REACH (Racial and Ethnic Approaches to Community Health) projects across the country. No.69 Untitled
Wow. I just recently found the FA blogosphere and I'm finding myself somewhat flummoxed. Seems like everyone is up in arms about something. Between the good/bad fatty debate, intuitive eating/bunch of BS, and now this, I just don't know what is okay to say anymore. Someone please give me a guide. I'm apparently clueless. No.70 Regarding Accepted Racism
I think people are failing to distinguish what they mean by "accepted." I think that institutionalized racism is a form of accepted (by implication, roughly unchallenged) racism. Whether you think accepted means being able to wear a "No N***ers" shirt (in comparison to "No Fatties"), then guess I see the point. I think things can be accepted without being promoted openly.
Some examples of institutionalized (accepted) racism:
-Disproportionate number of black folks in prison and on death row
-Criminalization of black/brown men
-Anti-immigrant rhetoric and politics. (Example: California prop 187, which sought to deny social services to undoc. immigrants--but, based on racial profiling. This passed overwhelmingly)
-Present day segregation according to income level and disproportionate amount of impoverish people of color
-Unequal access to higher education for POC given high school disparity
-Anti-Affirmative Action rhetoric, telling students of color that they "take the place" of white students. Conflation of preference with taking race/gender into account.
-Disparate legal sanctions for various offenses. Example: serious penalties for being in possession of crack cocaine in comparison to less severe penalties for possession of cocaine (which is far more present in affluent white communities)
-Legal history concerning Native rights and recuperation of Native property, artifacts, and remains--lengthy (racist) legal inheritance based on precedent in Johnson v McIntosh, 1823.
NOW, I know that not just POC are subject to these forms of 'ism. But that's not what I'm trying to argue. I am trying to convey that there are longstanding, ACCEPTED forms of racism that are largely unchallenged by the dominant social/class brackets. It's offensive to claim that it is otherwise.
On a completely personal note, I am a fat woman of color. However, the issues I face because of my race go far beyond those I face because of my size. I know we tell each other not to play "oppression olympics" but seriously, racism has affected me far more and is far more present in my life than is the discrimination I face as a fat body. People of color have faced and continue to face genocidal tactics all over the world--most of which, again, go unchallenged. Personally, these issues are more disturbing than the possibility of someone wearing a "No N***ers" shirt. But again, this is only my experience. No.71 PS.
PS. I listed examples only because some people seem to disbelieve that such a thing as accepted racism still exists. No.72 Response to Tracey (#69)
Tracey, these discussions are healthy and necessary -- it's part of a growth process of a movement and to not have this "dirty laundry" aired would lead to it festering.
I hope that these honest discussions would lead to changes in how inclusive the fatosphere becomes.
I hope that I am more sensitive as a blogger, poster and activist.
Conflict isn't inherently bad. I would much prefer to know that someone disagrees with me or that something I'm doing is marginalizing than for someone to just say f*** it and never listen to me again. No.73 Untitled
Miss Jay,
Thank you for your comments. I recently posted about what might be different in my life if I lived as if weight didn't matter -- ie if I confronted my internalized fat hatered. After I posted (before I read Tara's post) I thought about how dangerous it would be for a person of color to live as if race didn't matter. Life-threatening, much of the time, I think.
As a Jewish person in this country, I don't have a great deal of internalized anti-semitism, and if I live as if my religious/cultural identity doesn't matter, it's not going to get me into a huge amount of trouble. In some other places (and certainly in other times) this would also be a life-threatening way to live. But right now, it's not -- it's a place of privilige as I'm considered white. As a white hetersexual woman, it's similar. But I do have a lot of fat hatered swirling around in my brain (and internalized hatered of other differences, like race, ethnicity, sexuality and religion, in some cases) that I need to work through.
There are times when it's fundamentally dangerous to just be, due to other people's (mostly white) systems and arbitrary hatered. Being fat means you feel the tip of the iceberg of this -- but the depth of the systematic removal of the other -- immigrant, racially/ethnically, sexually different -- is pervasive and deep. I am ashamed that I haven't worked harder at dismantling these systems. I think that politically, we may have some hope on the horizon. If the powers that be don't decide to disinfranchize the majority of voters and put forth a candidate who they are less afraid of.
No.74 long response to Holli
Tara, THANK YOU. This is so good to see here, and has (obviously) gotten a lot of people thinking. Holli - I'm white, so while I can offer a few things that I've found to be helpful in doing anti-racist work, know that it's not a 'this would make me comfortable' thing, rather a 'this has been helpful to me' thing. First - some of your comments implied to me that you're looking for a way to make sure that you're not seen as someone who has unexamined White privilege, or for ways to make sure discussions don't invoke white privilege. Since you can't control what your comments will evoke in other people, this just isn't possible. Additionally, I haven't ever met *anyone* who is 100% aware of 100% of their privilege(s) 100% of the time. I don't think that state is attainable, so working to be reflective rather than reactive when your privilege(s) are pointed out is a huge step in making conversations more productive. Like others said above, working to make it so that people can say 'I feel ___ was unwelcoming' is also helpful. Secondly, I don't think you can ever do too much research. It's not going to lay out what you can do in all situations, but it's never going to hurt, and there's always more to read. My last two points relate to your comment here: ... I want to talk to a real live person. That's where you come in, and Tara and any other POC that feels that enlightening someone is worth a little of their time. — HolliI can hear that you're frustrated that you aren't finding what you're looking for, however, the 'is worth a little of their time' comment makes me feel like you believe you're entitled to that time. Speaking from my experience as a queer woman, that's very off-putting to hear when I'm being asked to explain my views on gay-rights stuff, and I'd imagine it'd be off-putting so some POC reading it here. When you haven't had the chance to talk with someone one-on-one about this stuff, it *is* frustrating, and you nevertheless *aren't* entitled to those conversations. Lastly, when you're looking for feedback on this stuff, I think that it's often most productive to ask specific questions rather than asking for 'enlighten[ment]'. Enlightenment is a HUGE thing to request, and is all-encompassing. Asking Tara to link to the discussion on Fatshionista where the salwar kameez discussion happened, and talking about specific points on that post is a lot more reasonable IMO. (Tara'd have to answer and her opinion might differ, though.) No.75 Untitled
Alice, you're right.
Asking a stranger on the internet to do your homework for you is not something that I personally respond to and that I know other POC have no interest in as well. I mean, thinking about myself as an example, I'd think long and hard about asking a close friend of mine to "enlighten" me about a privilege that I held, so asking a stranger to do so for you feels like entitlement.
And it's not like I never respond to those responses. I have definitely given out articles and lent my thoughts when I've had the time and inclination, but to expect someone to do so and then to throw up your hands in frustration when you're not getting the answers you wanted? Well, that's where the problem lies. No.76 Untitled
Thank you, Miss Jay! It irritates me to no end every time I hear someone claim that racism is "unacceptable." It still pervades daily life for many people. Anti-racism laws are a start, but by no means does that indicate the battle has been won. It is still very much acceptable, perhaps not in the proclaim-it-from-the-headlines manner that fat prejudice is condoned, but in other ways that can be just as damaging. No.77 Untitled
It is not the responsibility of POC to educate. Tara (or any other POC) does not have to explain anything over & over. To put this kind of responsibility onto POC implies that it's our problem to fix (and, arguably, that it was/is our problem to begin with & white people are just sitting around waiting for us to tell them what to do).
This is where it always gets tough for me, because on the one hand it's absolutely not the responsibility of every POC to go around educating white folks on how to make them comfortable. People shouldn't have to constantly ask to be accommodated, and they shouldn't have to constantly teach others how to accommodate them. If the FA movement is exclusive, it's not the fat POCs' responsibility to enlighten us on how to fix that.
On the other hand, Tara just knows more than I do. So does Julia. They are just better-read on social justice subjects. Tara works for social justice professionally! Furthermore, while my understanding of racism is always going to involve guesswork, they understand it better. Elusis, for instance, is white and WAY better-read than I am about race issues, but she still has the privilege to ignore or miss something, just like I do. POC friends who are smarter than me can also tell me if I'm being ignorant or Doing It Wrong even when I can't see it. It's not their responsibility to do so, but it's a huge help.
So there's a point at which you have to navigate the boundary between putting the onus on POCs to fix racism because you're too lazy, and sincerely asking POCs to help you figure out where to go from here. I find that it helps immensely to leave off with the "well what the hell am I supposed to do?" and replace it with "so... what can I do?" No.78 Untitled
This is a great post. There's so much I want to comment on.
First, I cringe when I read some of the comments from people who doubt your experiences. That is beyond frustrating.
Second, I'm glad you mentioned appropriation, a term I've (sadly) never heard before, but something I've talked about in my own way with a friend of mine not long ago. We were looking for custom-made clothing and wondered if ordering salwar-kameez would be offensive since we're white. I'll pass your point of view on to my friend. This is the sort of stuff I need to know.
Third, I've been thinking for a while now about the idea whose fat is more "offensive" to society. I've noticed that one woman's body may be more acceptable because of her clothes, hair, make-up, etc., than is another woman's of the same size. It's about so much more than fat. I was originally thinking about socioeconomic status, but there are so many other factors you've made me think about as well -- race, dis/ability, etc.
No.79 Untitled
Brava. I was just talking about this today with a friend of mine over breakfast. We were talking about where my personal activism is headed, and where our activism as a fledgling organization in Portland was headed, and one of the things I said most vehemently is that Bridges are where it's at for me. Town-Hall discussions where leaders from multiple activist movements get together to talk about intersections, to educate one another and the public, to see where the way we are going about things as individual movements, best of intentions aside, might be hindering the movements of our peers.
I know I have a helluva lot to learn. I can't feel confident in my own leadership skills until I learn it. And I'm always grateful to read commentary/criticisms like yours.
I keep thinking about that organization in Oakland that's working to provide community garden space to the public to grow vegetables for a local co-op to encourage participation in sustainable, local food growth, and thus access to those foods, in local neighborhoods. It's a brilliant idea and, as far as I can tell, being executed very well.
I keep thinking that encouraging fat folks and allies of the FA movement to volunteer with organizations and groups doing work like this that confront the classist and racist barricades to true choice in terms of the content of our daily nutritional intake would be an excellent way to show a glaring intersection of all these different activist causes and how they interact with one another. I apologize for that run-on sentence. It's 2am and I'm sure I'm not making sense entirely.
All this to say -- Hell yeah. And thanks! No.80 Untitled
"I keep thinking that encouraging fat folks and allies of the FA movement to volunteer with organizations and groups doing work like this that confront the classist and racist barricades to true choice in terms of the content of our daily nutritional intake would be an excellent way to show a glaring intersection of all these different activist causes and how they interact with one another."
Stacy, I think that that is a really freaking great suggestion. It definitely seems like food justice is one area where fat activists could very easily ally with racial justice, economic justice, and environmental justice activists. No.81 Untitled
I literally stumbled across this discussion by accident and I just had to register so that I could jump into the fray. I am so keyed up I am shaking – and this is my first time here, so please be patient with me!
Tara – first of all, let me applaud the excellent presentation you made in your original post. I am amazed at the number of comments generated since you posted a couple of days ago – but I am not surprised at how “lively” the discussion has been. I don’t presume to speak for any of you, so forgive me for any oversimplification or misinterpretation on my part. That being said…
After carefully reading all the comments and then re-reading Tara’s original post, it seems to me that she very eloquently makes a valid point: POC are not flocking to the FA movement because (ironically, in my opinion and I am paraphrasing here) it has failed to resolve the issue of invalidation within its own ranks. She is apparently in a position to know first-hand that other POC do or would feel/experience the same things she has during her involvement with the movement. And it is not about lack of access or lack of interest (which are pretty piss-poor arguments). It really is about invalidation.
Even if the invalidation is unintentional due to egocentrism or ignorance or whatever, it still results in a pretty crappy relationship, if you ask me. I mean, if any of us had a friend who was in a relationship (friendship, romance, business, etc.) where their feelings/experiences were constantly being negated by the other party, wouldn’t the best recommendation be to get the hell out and not come back unless some things got seriously fixed?? This is exactly what Tara seems to have figured out for herself when she said “I hope the message is clear. For the most part, your fat acceptance movement does not speak to us, and we're not coming until y'all work out some shit.”
Since so much of the “back and forth” during this discussion seemed to be based on perspective, I would like to state that I am white, female, 40, fat, and I was born and raised in the deep south. Like I said before, I am new to the FA movement – and this is just my opinion, but….
To those of you who are crying for more direction on what steps need to be taken to promote the inclusion of PCO within the movement, um, Tara handed it all to you on a silver platter when she stated that “rarely, if ever, do I see white fat acceptance bloggers talking critically about why the movement may not be relevant or structured in a way that attracts fat people of color and their allies” and then proceeded to clearly explain that:
1) it IS offensive to her to see people within the movement take up the “fat is the last acceptable oppression” banner.
2) it IS offensive to her to hear people (quite often) say that POC are more accepting of the fat, even to go so far as to say that black men love a “thick” woman.
3) it IS a big deal when she tries to address appropriation and creativity in fashion choices that don’t resort to cultural theft.
4) arguing that “big is beautiful” IS race-centric to her if it doesn’t address the bigger issue of re-defining “beautiful” to address other issues that women face culturally (besides being fat).
5) it IS disappointing for her that the movement rarely addresses access as it relates to food.
Regardless of what I think (or anyone else, for that matter) – Tara (and other POC) must be validated if the all of you guys want to promote inclusion of POC in the movement. If you don’t, just keep up the inappropriate responses/feedback and keep the movement all to yourself. What exactly are you fighting for here anyway?
No.82 Clarification - Previous Post
Please understand that I am NOT trying to be critical - I really would like to understand what the FA movement is about. I re-read my post and the last bit sounded snippy (what exactly are you fighting for here anyway?) and that isn't how I meant it.
I have comments on every single point listed (1-5) but I figured I have said enough for now...Each point would make a valuable thread of dicussion but it would be even more helpful if they could all be grouped together somehow...
Is there an area around here dedicated to this topic encouraging tolerance within the Movement? Or areas dedicated to dealing with specific cultural or religious influences on FA? No.83 Untitled
Crap.
I'm new to the FA movement and now I have to be all weird and self-conscious about my skin color here too?
That sucks.
Why do we have to talk about access to food as it relates to race? Why can't we stick with socioeconomic status. To say that only POC end up homeless or in poor circumstances is a blatant lie. My mother and I were homeless for a year. Lived in a damn Pinto. The issue of access to food is huge for me because during that year we had to eat from dumpsters on many an occasion...with POC and other whites. Trust me, no one gets into the color argument over a dumpster - everyone is equal at that point. (Your dumpster diving experiences as a child may have been different, of course.)
But I've actually had POC of priviledge (there are many) tell me my experience couldn't possibly have been as bad as the homeless POC simply because of the color of my skin.
It's okay, I'm used to everyone assuming that because I'm big, blond, and blue eyed that my life has been a certain way, that I am a certain type of person, that I have never known pain, that I've never been homeless, and that I live a life of extraordinary privilege and get things that I may not deserve.
I just wish someone could tell me where I could find people to talk to about how being fat and discriminated against makes me feel and ways I can work to speak up and say it is okay to be fat. Somewhere that people come together regardless of race to talk about how we can fix the problems and help each other.
Somewhere where we are all equal. No.84 Untitled
Jen, I'm not sure where you got from my post that class is not an important issue or where anyone even came close to saying that white folks can't be poor or can't experience that same lack of access to food.
You said: "Why can't we stick with socioeconomic status." Well, because that is not the only issue that affects our experiences of fat.
It's telling that my post and the comments from other POC folks make you upset that you have to be "self-conscious" about race, because people of color have to think about race every single day. We don't have the luxury to be able to forget about our race and talk about things like fat and/or class without wanting to bring such a vital part of our lives into the equation.
So what *I* want to know if there is a place where people of all races and classes and sexualities and genders and abilities and ages can talk about "how being fat and discriminated against makes [us] feel" without having to defend the fact that our experiences of fat may be different. No.85 Re:
Jen- This is exactly what I am talking about. I come on the page, ask an honest question and clearly I am TRYING to find ways to help. I am braving all the people who disagree with me so that I can try and find a way to make POCs feel comfortable and your (personally not POC in general) basically telling me to fuck myself. Talk about dismissive. If I knew how to find ways to help don't you think I would? Why would I risk belittling comments from I am so flaming mad right now. What the hell do you want from me? I AM TRYING! and your telling me to find out for myself and if it's wrong oh well. Why don't you help me? Isn't this what it is about?
Helping each other? — Holli KnepperYou have clearly missed the point. No.86 Re:
On the other hand, Tara just knows more than I do. So does Julia. They are just better-read on social justice subjects. Tara works for social justice professionally! Furthermore, while my understanding of racism is always going to involve guesswork, they understand it better. POC friends who are smarter than me can also tell me if I'm being ignorant or Doing It Wrong even when I can't see it. It's not their responsibility to do so, but it's a huge help.
So there's a point at which you have to navigate the boundary between putting the onus on POCs to fix racism because you're too lazy, and sincerely asking POCs to help you figure out where to go from here.
— FillyjonkIt's not about being better-read or -educated or being smarter. It's not about choice & access. This is shit we know because we live it. And there are so many voices out there, already speaking or have already spoken, to hear and to glean from. You have access to it. You already have access to what you're asking for and yet you keep asking for more. No.87 Untitled
Tara- You don't know me, and it is a fair assumption to say that I don't know you. You don't know that my husband is full blooded Native American. To assume that I am asking you to do my homework for me, because I am too lazy or entitled to do it myself is way out of line. I thought that you posted this in order to open up communication on the matter, and that if I had a question I couldn't find the answer to(ie how to assist POCs in feeling more welcome in the FA community)I could ask it here. Clearly I was wrong. I struggle every day to be more aware of the prejudices around me. I try to teach myself and if I stumble or make a mistake (such as posting a question in this forum) then I take that as part of the price of knowledge. But was a rebuked kindly by you? NO. You first felt it was beneath you to respond, and then respond to someone who was kindly responding to me, to say that you weren't going to "do my homework for me" There are those on here who saw my questions for what they were, an honest attempt to ask for help from someone that knew more on the topic then I did. Again, I normally wouldn't have but I was laboring under the false assumption that questions like mine were exactly why you started this blog to begin with. But you are absolutely right. It's not your responsibility. There is no oweness on you to assist me. Just like you don't have to open the door for the person behind you, but it's nice if you do. I understand that I am not entitled to your time. Don't worry. I won't take up anymore of it. No.88 Untitled
Excellent post. In re: the issue of fat and poverty, I recommend that people visit this website: www.localfoodsconnection.org. It's an Iowa City-based food distribution group that gets healthy locally farmed food to poor Iowans. I'm not affiliated with it--I just think it's a great idea and I'm sure there are other programs like it in other parts of the country. No.89 Untitled
I have to say, as a white girl, I've experienced prejudice myself - for being the only catholic girl in a very small southern town over twenty years ago, never mind being told in high school by boy who's daddy was part of the KKK that it was alright for him to date me because my mother's family was "Northen" Italian.
It's not a life time of BS that WOC/POC have gone through, but it was enough to open my eyes..
so I get what you're saying.
At the same time I need to digest the rest of what you (and everyone else) is saying.
No.90 Untitled
I registered for the sole purpose of saying
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! FOR THIS AWESOME POST!
It amazes me how clueless people are. And then there are those who have the nerve to say "well, it's not like you say it is" or "well, we are doing that". If a POC - hell, if several POC if these comments are any indication - are saying that something's rotten and needs to be fixed, how hard is it not to take a step back and say "Let's take a look and see what can be done to fix this."
Before I go, I've just got to say this:
Holly, just because you're married to a POC, does not give you a free pass. Actually, one would think that the racism POC suffer would have affected you earlier because of that relationship, either through your own experiences or that of your husband. Why did it take THIS for you to open your eyes and try to examine the world around you?
Also, to everyone that has asked:
IT IS NOT THE JOB OF PEOPLE OF COLOR TO TEACH ANYBODY RACISM 101. There are way too many damn resources out there for people not to sit down and read, listen, or watch, how racism is still affecting people in this day and age. That is, if, you're actually willing to learn about it. No.91 Racism in regards to FA community
Ok, for the final and last time, I want to know what I can do within the FA community, not life in general to make POCs feel more comfortable. I believe that I have stated several times that in my personal life I make every effort to combat and inform myself of the issues facing people of color. It is in this forum that I asked how, as a member of the FA community I can make people of color more comfortable, since that was the topic at hand. My husband has faced racism and it has reared it's ugly head in my own life many times, but that is neither here nor there for the purposes of what I was asking. Please refrain from assuming I want a "free pass" If you will notice I didn't even bring up my husbands ethnicity until this last post, in order to explain that I am neither lazy or asking someone else to do my homework for me. Oh, and for the record, my husband took the time to help me understand a lot of the issues that he deals with. He didn't have to. It wasn't his job. But he did. And I am a better person because of it. No.92 Untitled
Ok, for the final and last time — SomeonePromise? I want to know what I can do within the FA community, not life in general to make POCs feel more comfortable. — SomeoneThose things are interconnected. There are POCs in the FA community, and as POCs, we don't have the privilege of turning our Racist-o-Meter on or off. So, dealing with racism in the FA community is also dealing with it in other places. Oh, and for the record, my husband took the time to help me understand a lot of the issues that he deals with. He didn't have to. It wasn't his job. But he did. And I am a better person because of it. — SomeoneGood for you. Fortunately for us, we're not your husband. Therefore, I have absolutely no qualms about telling you to GO READ A DAMN BOOK. Or, sense your husband has been so helpful, ask him. But don't expect some random POC that you don't even know to teach you about racism. No.93 Untitled
I hope that we can all agree that sweeping statements and wholesale generalizations aren't good. I don't think that anyone can claim to speak for all fat people of color unless they've taken some sort of broad ranging, scientific survey. br I'm a Chicana, and I'm fat. Tara, I don't question your own interpretation of your own experiences. I admire the passion with which you write, and I thank you for bringing up such a thought provoking subject. But I don't like other people speaking for me. And when you write, "For the most part, your fat acceptance movement does not speak to us, and we're not coming until y'all work out some shit," I feel like that's what you're trying to do. br You can speak for yourself. You can speak for fat POC you know through the blogosphere, you can speak for fat POC you've personally discussed this shit with, but you cannot speak for everyone. br I don't think about my race every day. I have found it MUCH harder being fat in this society than I have being brown. If every fat white girl out there wants to start wearing a huipil, I say, go for it. They're pretty and they're really comfortable in hot weather. I think Holli seems like a good, well-intentioned person who is trying her best to figure things out and doesn't need to be called out for not knowing something that she clearly wants to learn. Those are just a few of the ways in which this POC's opinions and experiences may differ from yours. No.94 Untitled
Also -- fuck -- I don't know how to use html properly. No.95 Untitled
I have to agree with Raquel - everyone has a different experience if they're a POC/WOC or "white".
I don't know exactly what's being achieved by being rude to Holli, though. It doesn't achieve anything. She's asking an honest enough question - would it have been that much harder to give her a suggestion or point in her the right direction than being sarcastic her? No.96 Untitled
Holli, I'm not sure if you didn't read or are ignoring some of the great suggestions that Julia had above, but I'll re-list them here:
"What are things to do? Well if you googled anti-racism information, there are lots of webpages and blogs about that. You could google for information about various ethnicities. You could go to the library and get out anti-racist books. You could read a memoir by someone who is a latina, or african-american or asian-american. You could read the essay linked above on unpacking white privilege.
Just in Tara's essay she gives examples. Not saying fat is the last acceptable prejudice. Learn about how your own privilege affects your experience, and listening to the experiences of others. Look at prevailing beauty standards and see how they are constructed in race and class based terms.
All of those things do not require POC to sit down with you and explain racism (or classism or sexism). You can do this work yourself. It may seem to you like this is an individual request for help, but POC (especially in lefty liberal circles) get asked to explain their lives on a regular basis. It is exhausting and aggravating to do so. It is not my responsibility to do racism 101 every time someone asks me to." No.97 Untitled
Holli,
This isn't a matter of making POC "comfortable", it's about taking your boot off someone's else neck so they can fully participate as equals. That means sitting down to actually listen and learn. The reason why some people are getting frustrated (or at least I was frustrated enough to say something) with your questions is that Tara and several other commenters already outlined several issues that need to be addressed. That means educating yourself more about these issues, so you can challenge the status quo and help bring them into the conversation and expand the focus of the discussion. When other people use rhetoric that is racist/excludes POC perspectives/centers whiteness, you need to challenge those ideas.
It's not something that anyone can give you or you can just pick up or take from someplace. If you want to make a movement more inclusive of diverse identities, then you need to be fully committed to learning about different oppressions. Only in that process, will you be able to see to discuss intersectionality and challenge discussions that center the more privileged perspectives.
I'm not fat, but I'm a queer-flavored trans person of color struggling with chronic illness. I have no radically fat-identified people that I can casually access, and yet I'm now combating my own family's fatphobia, slowly transforming my mother's (who is fat) ideas about her health, as well as my younger sisters' body image/eating habits. I'm also beginning to see and understand how fatphobia intersects with race, gender, and disability and the importance of recognizing these intersections and helping make these places of resistance fat-inclusive as well. But this could have never happened until I seriously started educating myself on fatphobia. Yes, I can ask questions, but once I oriented myself in the direction of FA discussions, I didn't see a need. There is so much information and ground already covered, at the 101 level and far beyond. I will never understand what it's like to be fat, (unless my body changes in the future of course) and I will get many things wrong, but that isn't a reason to quit. It means that I need to shut up and listen and keep learning. There is an abundance of resources that will never give us the experience, but help one become a far more productive ally.
A place to start your journey:
http://brownfemipower.com is an excellent feminist, woc-centered blog that also has an excellent blogroll. Bfp always keeps intersectionality at the forefront and has some excellent discussions with thoughts that are relevant to a lot of different identities and struggles. No.98 Untitled
Thank you for writing this post. I have been alienated from the FA movement more than once by assumptions that people of color are more accepting of large women. I am a half-Mexican, half-white woman, and it has not been my experience. I also appreciate you saying that fat is not the last acceptable prejudice. I have seen fat bloggers say both of these things, and it has made me really sad. I'm glad someone is talking about it. No.99 Untitled
To all who have responded to my question, both with kindness and vitriol, I thank you. Your replies have said so much beyond what they merely "said". Both kind and unkind responses have taught me something immense and much bigger then myself. I am sorry to have frustrated so many people. I guess that at this point it is important for me to clarify.
I have indeed read many blogs, books,
etc. regarding racism and other forms of discrimination. Having done this for a majority of my life, and being married to a person of color, I was clueless to the fact that POCs felt uncomfortable in the FA community. So I guess that my question came from the stand point of "Ok, I have researched racism, I try every day to implement the changes that I think need to be made in society, and clearly what I have read and researched is not helping me because POCs still feel uncomfortable in this community. Maybe I can ask them what else I can do to make them more comfortable, because nothing that I've read in my research seems to be helping." This was poorly communicated by me, and it seems as though many of you thought I was asking for a random POC stranger to enlighten me on Racisim 101. That is not the case, although I welcome any person that wishes to share their opinion with me, as long as it is not derogatory. My one complaint in the whole matter is that there have been some posters that have been down right mean to me. I have cried over some of the responses on this post. Although in hind sight my question was not as clear as it should have been, and I can see where there was room to anger people, it really was well meaning, and telling me "Fortunately for us we're not your husband," and so forth was just tacky and mean. I feel like we are all striving for something greater then ourselves here, and being mean doesn't help anyone. No.100 Untitled
Excellent post, Tara! I found this via post via another blog.....
As a 40+ y/o fat, queer, WOC (oppression olympics, anyone?), there were many points I agreed on here...and, if I may add another:
Try adding "queer" on top of being fat and a WOC....yep, in regards to the FA community: if WOC are not exoticized or masculinized (I've been there)....we may otherwise be completely "invisible" to most members of the FA community, especially when it comes to social events.....just my $0.02 No.101 Untitled
DiosaNegra1967, I'm also queer, so I do regularly add that factor into my equation!
Thanks for your thoughts! No.102 Untitled
@ Holli:
It looks like you're doing what you can. The rest will need to be done by the movement. No.103 Synchronicity
All in all, a thought-provoking post. I'm providing the link below only because I talk a little bit about my own reaction to some of the comments. Mostly off-topic, however, so feel free to delete this if you feel it is appropriate to do so.
http://treelessforest.blogspot.com/2008/03/synchronicity.html No.104 Re:
My one complaint in the whole matter is that there have been some posters that have been down right mean to me. I have cried over some of the responses on this post. Although in hind sight my question was not as clear as it should have been, and I can see where there was room to anger people, it really was well meaning, and telling me "Fortunately for us we're not your husband," and so forth was just tacky and mean. — Holli KnepperRacism is tacky and mean, among other things. If you are willing to do your own research, might I suggest: One item that comes up over and over in discussions of racism is that of tone/attitude. People of Color (POC) are very often called on their tone when they bring up racism, the idea being that if POC were just more polite about the whole thing the offending person would have listened and apologized right away. This not only derails the discussion but also tries to turn the insults/race issues into the fault of POC and their tone. — The Privilege of Politeness, http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/2008/02/12/the-privilege-of-politeness/ No.105 Untitled
As far as I know, Many big people don't have a lot of money. I don't have much too. How could we keep healthy even if we go on diet. Food without nutrition even make us worse than ever. No.106 Angel
Angel - I read the post that you sent me to, and have begun reading ABWs recommended reading list. However, I read a lot about the importance of open and honest discussions regarding racism, and I feel like anger and rudeness shut down the idea of open communication. I don't want to monopolize this blog by getting off topic, but I would be interested in knowing how you feel about manners and politeness in regards to discussions about racism. I have looked online, and can't seem to find any articles about it. If you have the time and inclination, please email me. No.107 Untitled
I've just registered in order to put up this comment. This was an amazing post, one which has really opened my mind and given me thoughts that I can see I'll be chewing over for a long time to come.
Could I ask (I couldn't see this anywhere in the comments thread, please forgive me if I missed it) if you'd talk a bit more about white people wearing, for example, the salwar kameez, and "appropriation"?
I am white, Jewish and British. Working by analogy from my own experiences, it can sometimes be irritating when I hear of people who haven't really taken the time to learn about Jewish history and tradition experimenting with a Jewish custom for fun, and not really getting it right. (For example, rather inauthentic Passover seders in elementary schools.) Having said that, I can see that the aim in these cases is inclusion and understanding, even if the execution isn't perfect. A friend, whose heritage is partly Nigerian, asked me for my chicken soup recipe, and she taught me how to cook ackee. These simple exchanges seem really positive and life-enhancing to me.
However, clearly I haven't understood the whole picture. Do you think there are ways to take pleasure in the products and traditions of other cultures without that being appropriation?
I apologise also if I'm again asking you to explain your life experiences to me. I ask because you raised this as your viewpoint and I want to understand it more thoroughly - I really hope this question doesn't annoy or offend.
Thank you again for the wonderful post. No.108 Untitled
Everything you've written is right on, and needs to be addressed, and I thank you for doing so.
Except for one thing that I don't understand: how WOC could be for fat acceptance, and yet not consider themselves part of the movement toward fat acceptance. That's illogical. The only way it isn't, is if you're defining "movement" as "club that white people own." Is that right? Is there a perception that someone owns the FA movement, that it is by default a white movement, and that any racially ignorant or prejudiced white person who supports it gets to represent it? How else could you be making statements like, "if you want us in your community" and "your fat acceptance movement does not speak to us"? What makes the movement toward fat acceptance *ours*? Why does it belong to us? No.109 Untitled
So you, as a white person, say that your daily experiences are racism-free? Gee, I wonder why that is.
I mean, really. It's attitudes like this that drive people of color away from the FA movement. If you don't believe us when we say that racism has not gone away and that we experience it in every single aspect of our lives, then that's really telling. — TareAll fine, and you are right: How can a white person really know about racism. Thus not properly addressing racial and class issues here. Because they are white. As you state with your "Gee, i wonder why that is?" But how can the movement properly reflect on issues none of its current members have any good contact with. And on the other hand, said minorities don't participate because their concerned are not voiced. A lame excuse, if you ask me, for those that argue this way. You are the movement, officially enlisted or not. You are as much responsible for its inner workings and official statements as anyone else! In a democratic organisation as a representational group for a larger movement, there is no such thing as being left out ... you leave yourself out, if anything. No.110 Untitled
This post was brilliant, thoughtful and made me feel like perhaps there might be a space at the FA accepting table. Thank you so much. |
